Today Sri Aurobindo opened the talk by inquiring from Satyendra about X's health. Then the talk proceeded to homoeopathy. The Mother came and took some part in it. After she had gone, the talk on medicine continued.
SRI AUROBINDO: Once in Baroda I had a nasty abscess on the knee. All treatment failed. Then Madhavrao Jadhav called in a Mohammedan who pricked the knee at a particular point and brought out a big drop of black blood and the abscess was cured soon afterwards! He must have known the spot to prick.
I also remember Jatin Banerji curing many cases of sterility by a Sannyasi's medicine given to him. Cases of ten or fifteen years' sterility were cured by it and people got children within ten months. There were some peculiar rules to be observed before taking the medicine: for example, the woman had to take a bath, the hair had to be down, etc., etc.
Many such things known to India are being lost now.
Satyeyndra: I don't think medicines will succeed in curing disease. I believe only the Yogic power can do it.
NIRODBARAN: Quite so; but, even there, one has to fulfil certain conditions. (Laughter)
SRI AUROBINDO: He expects that the Yogic power will simply say, "Let the disease be cured" or "Let there be no disease for life" and the thing will be done!
Satyeyndra: Not that way, Sir! But we have even seen cases that have been cured miraculously.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is another matter. But otherwise the Yogi has to get up every morning and say, "Let everybody in the world be all right" and there will no more be disease in the world!
There are many miracles of Christ of that sort: he spat on some earth and put it on a blind man's eyes and the man was made to see.
CHAMPAKLAL: Satyen's Guru also cured a case of leprosy and the man became a painter afterwards!
SRI AUROBINDO: In the Bible there is also the multiplication of fish and the descent of the Holy Ghost and the disciples getting gift of tongues-speaking many languages perhaps? I don't understand what they mean by it.
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Satyeyndra: What is the significance of the Son, the Father and the Holy Ghost?
SRI AUROBINDO: The Son, I suppose, could be the individual Divine, the Divine in man — they speak of the Christ in man; the Father is the personal Divine, the ruler of the world; and perhaps the Holy Ghost is the Impersonal.
But I don't understand what they mean by saying, "A sin against Christ and the Father is pardonable but that against the Holy Ghost is unpardonable." It would seem to mean that if you destroy your soul you can't be redeemed.
DR. BECHARLAL: The soul can be destroyed?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, in the sense that if you go against the essential Divine in you and drive out the psychic being, the nature is left without any divine support.
Then Dr. Becharlal and others cited some cases of miracles.
DR. BECHARLAL: Brahmananda on several occasions fed many people out of a small quantity of food. Also, when the ghee ran short, he used to take water from the Narmada and have things fried in it. And when the occasion was over and a fresh supply of ghee came along he would throw into the river a quantity equivalent to the water taken.
NIRODBARAN: Are such things possible?
SRI AUROBINDO: Well, they have happened. You can't say Brahmananda played a trick.
DR. BECHARLAL: No, no, it was not magic.
SRI AUROBINDO: Magic is different. There you use a medium to bring or carry things to a distance, like the stone-throwing in the Guest House. I heard of a Yogi who used to put his feet in one corner of the room and his hands in another-perhaps to give them proper rest! (Laughter)
PURANI: Is there any sign or test - not necessarily outward- by which one can know that a certain element is removed from the subconscious, apart from the fact that it would not repeat itself ?
SRI AUROBINDO: No test; but you can become aware that, it has gone. After that, it may come up like a habit. It goes from the mind, the vital and yet it comes up like something physical..
In that case, it comes from what I call the environmental nature and you feel it as a concrete suggestion or as a pain (if it is physical.
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or as a sex-impulse. It comes and passes transversely. If it comes as a sex-impulse, there is no question of love in it; it is purely physical. It tries to, enter in. If you consent, it creates a disturbance. But as soon as you feel it is coming, you can throw it away like a thought and you can see it actually passing away like that.
NIRODBARAN: Is it very difficult to be conscious of these things?
SRI AUROBINDO: In some cases, it is very easy. Naik was very conscious, for he was high-strung, with nerves very sensitive. With people whose constitutional make-up is of that sort, people who have a natural power of vision, it is easy.
But for those who have a thick physical layer and are fond of good food and have a hold on matter, it is difficult and takes time. Also people who are mentally active, intellectual, find it difficult. On the other hand, if one has subtle intelligence, instead of external intellectuality, one may be greatly helped. A. E., for example, was very intellectual; but he was very developed in many other things also and had a remarkable power of vision. At one time I had great difficulty myself because of my mind, especially as regards visions.
The faculty can also come if one lives in his inner being. As you can feel these things, you can see them also. But it is very difficult sometimes to bring down into oneself the thing which the vision symbolises, because people are so preoccupied with the vision that we find it difficult; to make them feel and embody the consciousness. .
Sometimes for years and years this faculty stops. Mental people also give a mental form to things by their ideas and thoughts and so the true vision-form does not appear to them. But even if one is not able to see, one can feel or perceive these forces or presences. And feeling is a step towards realisation.
There are, in the inner vision, symbols which are as old as the Vedas.
NIRODBARAN: The cross is a significant one.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is ancient and very well known. It marks the meeting-point of the Individual, the Universal and the Transcendent. These symbols are seen even when you don't know anything about them. There are some symbols which have not been fixed but which accompany the opening to the Brahman. Thus, I used to hear sounds of crickets and bells. The sounds of
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crickets were so noisy that I wondered whether there were many crickets outside!
Here a discussion followed about schools of Yoga and sound (Nada). At the end someone said, "The swastika is an old sacred symbol and now has become Hitler's symbol."
SRI AUROBINDO: It was a sign of the spiritual consciousness and now it is a danger signal. (Addressing Purani) Have you heard Jean Herbert's opinion of Hitler?
PURANI: No.
SRI AUROBINDO: Someone told him that the Mother has described Hitler as possessed by a demon. He was greatly shocked and replied that the Mother could not have said so. Of course, the Mother had simply said that he was "possessed".
PURANI: That Russian S also took Hitler to be a great man; he was full of admiration for him. He said that the Germans of today are the most cultured nation.
SRI AUROBINDO: What culture do they have? I should think on the contrary that Germany before Hitler was more cultured than the present Germany. That reported interview with the Kaiser expressed the contrast very well.
PURANI: Yes, he said the Nazis were a gang of ruffians and blackguards, without God, tradition and dynasty.
SRI AUROBINDO: That's the disadvantage for the county When Hitler and Mussolini go they won't leave any tradition behind. They have no families of cultural distinction such as there used to be in the old times. In India there was also the traditional line of culture handed down from Gurus to disciples.
Then the talk took a sudden turn. Someone began to speak Ramatirtha who could recite "Om " in such a wonderful way in meeting that people were entranced by it. But after staying some months in the plains, he used to run away to the mountains saying that lie was losing his consciousness and people were dragging him into active life.
SRI AUROBINDO: I am not surprised to hear that, for they can drag a Yogi down from spiritual heights. But that shows he had the realisation in his mental being only.
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Satyeyndra: No, sir, he was a Bhakta also.
PURANI: He had two strains: intellectual and emotional.
SRI AUROBINDO: In that case it means that his experience of the Brahmic consciousness was in the mental and emotional parts and had not been brought down to the vital and physical. One loses the experience in such cases when the vital becomes active.
But it is not necessary that it should be so. In my Nirvana experience the peace I had never left me and that peace remained unbroken even in the midst of crowded meetings. I had not to make any effort to keep it. It was always there. Even here when I used to go to marriage parties like David's, I used to feel the people rather tiring but at the same time this consciousness and peace were there overhanging all and enveloping all.
NIRODBARAN: Does it mean in Ramatirtha's case that the experience was not worked upon in the vital and physical planes?
SRI AUROBINDO: Certainly. Usually you find these experiences worked upon in the mental and emotional planes, in the vital less while in the physical almost not at all.
NIRODBARAN: Where is the difference? In the nature of the conquest or the extent?
SRI AUROBINDO: It is in the extent of the achievement. From the time of the Upanishads the cleavage began.
Satyeyndra: What about the Vedic Rishis?
SRI AUROBINDO: They accepted life. But the other paths made a sharp cleavage between life and the Brahmic consciousness. It was more markedly so under the influence of Buddhism and lastly Shankara made a sharp cut between the two.
Satyeyndra: Why should this cleavage be necessary?
SRI AUROBINDO: If you hold that life has no divine purpose, then it is not necessary to go beyond the escape into Laya. Then you are perfectly right in leaving life and, from the point of view of the Brahman, life and body are a bother.
The "why" of life and body has not been satisfactorily answered by those who have advocated the escape. They have either said about their existence, "It is Maya", which means there is no explanation for it, or "It is Lila", which means God has been merely playing about and you can't expect any purpose in play. But I should think that God had a purpose when he created this world.
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NIRODBARAN: What purpose?
Satyeyndra: Progressive manifestation of the Divine perhaps. (To Sri Aurobindo) But what you call "Supramental", is it your own idea—something thought out by you—or was it given to you from above?
SRI AUROBINDO: It is not my thought or idea. I have told you before that after the Nirvana experience I had no thoughts of my own. Thoughts used to come from above. From the beginning I didn't feel Nirvana to be the highest spiritual achievement. Something in me always wanted to go on farther. But even then I didn't ask for this new experience. In fact, in Nirvana, with that peace one does not ask for anything. But the truth of the Supermind was put into me. I had no idea of the Supermind when I started and for long it was not clear to me. It was the spirit of Vivekananda who first gave me a clue in the direction of the Supermind. This clue led me to see how the Truth-Consciousness works in everything.
NIRODBARAN: Did he know about the Supermind?
SRI AUROBINDO: He didn't say "Supermind". "Supermind'' is my own word. He just said to me, "This is this, this is that' and so on. That was how he proceeded—by pointing and indicating. He visited me for fifteen days in Alipore Jail and, until I could grasp the whole thing, he went on teaching me and impressed upon my mind the working of the higher consciousness-the Truth-Consciousness in general—which leads towards the Supermind. He would not leave until he had put it all into my head.
NIRODBARAN: Do Gurus come in that way and give teachings?
SRI AUROBINDO : Why not? That is the traditional experience from ancient times. Any number of Gurus give initiation after their death.
NIRODBARAN: You once spoke about Ramakrishna's and Vivekananda's influence in your life. Was it this you meant?
SRI AUROBINDO: No. I referred to the influence of their words and books when I returned from England to Baroda. Their influence was very strong all over India. But I had another direct experience of Vivekananda's presence when I was practising Hathayoga. I felt this presence standing behind and watching over me. That exerted a great influence afterwards in my life.
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In regard to the sounds, I am reminded of another experience. It was when Annie Besant invited me to see her. I heard, during the whole time of the meeting, the noise of thunder in my ears. I believe she was trying to throw an influence on me and my being was violently throwing it back.
Then came some talk about Haranath. It was said that many people saw him after his death. Someone even saw him at Madras. His miracles and his initiation were mentioned.
SRI AUROBINDO: There are two kinds of experiences: some people see visions with open eyes, others with closed eyes. Those who see with open eyes can easily mistake their visions for material forms and feel as if the individual seen was physically present.
NIRODBARAN: But is materialisation possible?
SRI AUROBINDO: There is a well-known case of such materialisation. It relates to the mother or the grandmother of the present Queen of England, — Lady Strathmore or some such name. The husband and wife always used to discuss religious things, the reality of after-life. They made a pact that whoever died first would come back and tell the other about the reality of after-life, if anything existed beyond. The husband died first. Several years later, he returned and spoke about the truth of their religion. Then the wife said, "Can you give me some proof that you physically came here, a proof that would always last with me?" He said "Yes", and then he took her hand and pressed it very hard. She felt a very acute burning sensation at the place. That burning left a permanent mark on her hand which she had to cover in order to conceal the mark from others. ,
That was materialisation, if you please!
The following note throws further light on the subject of Vivekananda's visitations to Sri Aurobindo in Alipore jail: It was written by the editor of Mother India, the journal in which these talks first appeared. See also the talk of 25 January 1939.
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Nirodbaran's report of Sri Aurobindo's statement about his discovery of the Supermind after the pointer, given in Alipore by Vivekananda's "spirit", to the Higher Consciousness- planes of divine dynamism above the mind — provides some body of detail to the general indications found in the published writing of Sri Aurobindo on this subject. Thus we read in Sri Aurobindo on Himself and on the Mother.
"It is a fact that I was hearing constantly .the voice Vivekananda speaking to me for a fortnight in the jail in my solitary meditation and felt his presence.... The voice spoke only on a special and limited but very important field of spiritual experience and it ceased as soon as it had finished saying all that it had to say on the subject." (p. 115)
"[Before coming to Pondicherry] Sri Aurobindo had already realised in full two of the four great realisations on which his Yoga... is founded. The first he had gained while meditation with the Maharashtrian Yogi Vishnu Bhaskar Lele at Baroda in January 1908; it was the realisation of the silent, spaceless and timeless Brahman.... His second realisation which was that of the cosmic consciousness and of the Divine as all beings and all that is,... happened in the Alipore Jail.... To the other two realisations, that of the supreme Reality with the static and dynamic Brahman as its two aspects and that of the higher plain of consciousness leading to the Supermind he was already on his way in his meditations in Alipore Jail." (pp. 107-108)
Further light on Vivekananda's coming to Sri Aurobindo is shed by the report found in the notes kept by Anilbaran of a talk with Sri Aurobindo in July 1926. Like Nirodbaran's report, it also brings us some significant particulars. It runs:
SRI AUROBINDO: Then there is the incident of the personality of Vivekananda visiting me in jail. He explained to me in detail this work of the Supramental — not exactly of the Supramental, but of the intuitivised mind, the mind as it is organised by the Supramental. He did not use the word "Supermind", I gave this name afterwards. That experience lasted for about two weeks.
Q: Was that a vision?
SRI AUROBINDO: No, it was not a vision. I would not have trusted a vision.
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Nirodbaran narrated to Sri Aurobindo an incident that had taken place in Calcutta. The Mother was present during the narration. The incident concerned a girl of about ten or twelve. She belonged to a very well-known family and had visited the Ashram with her parents more than once. Now there was a tea-party in their sumptuous house. Many high-ranking people had been invited. The topic of the Ashram came up. Comments and criticisms started flying freely. Even the Mother and Sri Aurobindo were not spared. The child listened quietly. But when somebody seemed to overstep the limit of decency, she could stand it no longer. In a firm tone she said, "Look here, if you speak one more word about my Gurus, I'll give you such a slap that you'll tumble down." Everybody was stunned. The child's mamma left the room in shame and anger at the insult to her guests. Her uncle started looking at the ceiling in embarrassment, and to change the subject he started calling to the servants, "Hari, Ram, what a lot of dust is here!" Nirodbaran's story was enjoyed by all immensely. The Mother and Sri Aurobindo looked happy. Then the Mother left.
SRI AUROBINDO: What this girl does is remarkable for her age. Along with strength of character she has developed an extra ordinary intelligence. When she used to write to us, she would make reflections about people and the world in general, which were beyond even a woman of fifty.
NIRODBARAN: I'll tell you of some rare traits in her, her powers of judgment as well as of detachment. She had a dancing master. Her parents wanted to dismiss him because he was said to have a bad character. She wouldn't agree at all. Her argument was that character had nothing to do with teaching. But for all her position the parents did send the fellow away. And when he left she acted quite contrary to expectation. Although she had fought much for him, she seemed not the least put out by his dismissal. Then there is the incident of the death of her pet dog. When this animal, which she had loved intensely, died she remained perfectly calm. This set her mamma thinking that she didn't love the dog and also that she might not be loving her even and would one day leave her for the Ashram.
SRI AUROBINDO: Her parents have found out it would be difficult to bend her to their will. She on her side has found out they keep lying to her.
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NIRODBARAN: People say she is quite happy where she is at present.
SRI AUROBINDO: How do they make that out? She wrote to us she was very unhappy outside.
The talk then turned on the purge-trials in Russia by Stalin.
SRI AUROBINDO: What Stalin wants is power-nothing else
NIRODBARAN: Is there nothing in his allegations against Trotsky?
SRI AUROBINDO: All that is not credible. Most probably Trotsky's followers wanted to get rid of Stalin by killing him but set about it in a clumsy way and so were killed by Stalin. Stalin has been able to get rid of almost everybody who had worked with Lenin. Litvinoff has managed to escape. I don't know what has happened to his wife. She was very anti-Stalin and could not be checked. One has heard of General Blucher and his trial but nothing afterwards. Stalin's parliament meets and talks and disperses. Whatever he and his party say is obeyed.
PURANI: The confessions of the generals and others were so dramatic.
SRI AUROBINDO: They made them to save their relatives probably.
NIRODBARAN: Was Trotsky a better man than Stalin?
SRI AUROBINDO: He was an idealist, at any rate.
Then there was talk about Japan. Purani referred to the resignation of all the Japanese Ministers and related some general's declaration about a hundred years' war.
SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, yes—to make the world civilised and to drive all the Europeans out of Asia! But it is very unusual for the Japanese to talk as this general has done. They never speak of anything beforehand. They get everything ready and act.
Satyeyndra: What about India's freedom? It seems it will very long for her to be free from European rule.
SRI AUROBINDO: Not necessarily. It seems to me she will not have to fight to get her freedom. She will get it without any fight.
NIRODBARAN: How's that?
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SRI AUROBINDO: That is the prophecy among the Sannyasis.
NIRODBARAN: I remember Lee also spoke like that.
SRI AUROBINDO: If India has to fight, she has no chance. But if some new power—Italy, for instance—were able to crush England effectively, as is very unlikely, India would have a chance. For then England wouldn't be able to hold India any more.
NIRODBARAN: But that power itself or else some other like Japan can come and capture her again.
SRI AUROBINDO: It can't be so easy. These powers are far away from India. For them it would be a great venture. Besides, one can't conquer a country only with a navy. The navy has to be supported by an army. If India has an army of her own, it will be difficult for any country to conquer her.
But it wouldn't be safe at present to depend on outside help. When the Mother once asked a Japanese friend of hers whether Japan's navy would help India in case of war, he replied, "Don't trust Japan. If she once gets in, it will be hard to get her out."
NIRODBARAN: India has no navy.
SRI AUROBINDO: It can be built up after independence, though it may take time.
PURANI: Even the Congress Ministers are not keeping to the policy of non-violence. They are planning and enforcing military training in the United Provinces, the Central Provinces, Bombay and Madras.
PURANI: Sir Sikandar Hussain has tried to make a division of India into martial races, like those of the Punjab, and non-martial races.
SRI AUROBINDO: That division was made by the British Government purposely to conquer and keep India down. They got the Pathans, Gurkhas and Punjabis to enter the army and make up the bulk of it. But every part of India had its empire in the past. AlI India can have military training and equipment in a short time.
NIRODBARAN: But what about the Muslims?
SRI AUROBINDO: The Muslims also don't want foreign rule. There is no doubt that the majority of prominent Muslims want independence.
NIRODBARAN: The majority?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. But they want Mohammedan independence. Even Jinnah wants independence. He has said it many
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times. I don't think the Muslims would prefer foreign domination to independence.
If India had the proper equipment, it would be quite a job for other nations to conquer her. Look at Spain. The Spanish Government has no proper equipment and yet the civil war there is dragging on for years. It was different with the Abyssinians when the Italians attacked them. They were unorganised as well as poor in equipment.
NIRODBARAN: If France gets Spain, it will be bad for England.
SRI AUROBINDO: But worse for France. She could easily be cut off from her African colonies and surrounded on all sides. For England also it will be bad, as the Spanish may block the present passage to the East and she may have to go round the other way.
By this spring the intention of the Axis powers will be known. In the meantime Italy is trying to manoeuvre Chamberlain to her side.
NIRODBARAN: France depends too much on England.
SRI AUROBINDO: She has to. She can't fight single-handed with Germany and Italy. Everybody knows that in case war breaks out Germany will side with Italy.
NIRODBARAN: France can have Russia's help.
SRI AUROBINDO: Not likely. First, she does not trust Russia Secondly, Russia is divided from France by almost the whole of Europe. Thirdly, the Russian navy is not strong.
NIRODBARAN: Germany is taking revenge for the unjust peace-terms after the last war.
SRI AUROBINDO: It's not exactly that. It was England who thrust Germany into power. She saw that France was getting powerful in Europe after the war. As is her usual self-interested policy, she raised Germany in order to create a balance of power, She didn't expect that Hitler would aim his gun at her. At one time France and England came almost to a point of rivalry. France tried to create a friendships with Italy by placating her and England made Mussolini an enemy by applying sanctions against Italy in Abyssinia. But she could not stop Italy from conquering Abyssinia.
I have never seen such bankruptcy of English diplomacy before Since the war she has been following a most imbecile and weal policy.
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NIRODBARAN: The papers say that Italy raised this Tunis Corsica cry to divert the attention of England and France from Spain.
SRI AUROBINDO: What attention? What have they been doing for Spain? Nothing! Even Blum who is a socialist applied this policy of non-intervention in Spain during his premiership.
Of course it is quite foolish for Italy to ask for Tunis or Corsica. No French politician can give them away against the wish of the people. The Italians have no chance here. One may as well ask for Wales and the Isle of Wight from England. Italy by this cry has, on the contrary, given a fright to the nationalists in Tunis and united them in favour of France.
NIRODBARAN: America is also preparing enormously.
Satyeyndra: She is not obliged to take part in European politics.
SRI AUROBINDO: Perhaps Roosevelt has got secret information about hostile designs. It is not a question of meddling in European politics but of guarding against being eaten up. Those who remain behind will be eaten up at last. Some people in America understand this. All are not like Chamberlain.
NIRODBARAN: The English fleet seems to be the strongest.
SRI AUROBINDO: I can't say, but it is the most experienced. The Italian fleet is very well equipped, but it is difficult to predict how it will fare in actual war. It has not been tried and tested.
NIRODBARAN: In a war, the future is likely to be decided in the air rather than on the sea.
SRI AUROBINDO: No; the air can't decide a war. Aeroplanes can only be an aid, but the fate of a war will be decided on the sea. If the navy can be smashed, then you can blockade a nation and starve it out or throw it on its own limited resources while you can obtain resources everywhere. It is sea-power on which will depend the mastery over other nations. It is because of sea- power that England has been the ruler of the world for three centuries.
France at one time had the lead in airpower, but she has lagged behind now because she foolishly stopped building aeroplanes.
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Sri Aurobindo began the talk, suddenly breaking his silence.
SRI AUROBINDO: There is something nice for you, Purani
PURANI: For me?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. A letter has come from America. addressed to Sri Aurobindo Ashram. The writer thinks the Ashram is a person. He writes, "I have heard that you are a great Yoga. I am also a Yoga. I have started to predict sporting events. I can go trance and know everything. If you agree to work in collaboration with me, we will share the profits. Let me know your terms. If don't want to take the money yourself, you can give it to the poor. Our collaboration will be a service to yourself, to me and to the poor." (Laughter)
What do you say, Purani? You too can go into trance or send Nirodbaran into trance.
NIRODBARAN: He will find me a hard nut!
PURANI: If he goes into trance, I fear he may not come out looking at the heap of dollars.
NIRODBARAN: And Purani will perhaps come out looking it?
PURANI: No objection to sharing the profits—but no share of the losses!
SRI AUROBINDO: All kinds of half-crazy people write from everywhere. I wonder how they get our address.
Satyeyndra: It must be from the magazine in which Anilbaran wrote an article.
SRI AUROBINDO: It may be the article, and perhaps Anilbaran wrote "Sri Aurobindo Ashram" under it, and people thought Ashram a person.
Satyeyndra: The magazine in which he wrote is published by the Institute. Its founder has made good business in America. His work is a combination of business and Yoga.
PURANI: Is it possible to predict sporting events?
Satyeyndra: I know of an astrologer who made a lot of predictions about a cousin of mine, but most of them didn't come true.
SRI AUROBINDO: I had a remarkable experience at Baroda It was not of astrology, but of thought-reading. My house- manager
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Chhotalal took me to an astrologer. The man asked me to prepare four questions in my mind. One of the questions came and passed very swiftly through my mind and I hardly formulated it. But he not only read the other three questions but even this which had as good as escaped me. On the other hand, his astrological predictions were not correct.
PURANI: Is anything being tried in America to get your works published? Did Vaun do anything?
SRI AUROBINDO: No. The Americans are not easily attracted to profound things. The article an American wrote some time back on me was very superficial. But Nishtha (Miss Wilso) said that it was originally quite deep; the editor of the paper said it wouldn't do. He thought the Americans wouldn't be interested in such deep things. So he made it what it is.
NIRODBARAN: Aren't the Americans open to new ideas?
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but what they want is sensation and novelty. All I can say is that there are more people in America interested in these things than in Europe. In Europe also their numbers are increasing now.
NIRODBARAN: But America is much taken up by the Ramakrishna Mission. One Bengali too has been a success. Somebody else from near Bombay made at one time a great name in Europe by his prophecies, but afterwards plenty of people started calling him a swindler.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why swindler? Did he take money for his prophecies? Swindling is when one takes money for things one promises to do but doesn't do. If prophecies don't come true, that is not swindling.
By the way, who is Purohit Swami?
PURANI: I don't know. It is he who has translated the Upanishads with Yeats in the Belearic Islands and written some commentaries. In his writings he mentions some cases of levitation he has seen.
SRI AUROBINDO: The only levitation I have heard of was of B, who insisted that his whole body had been raised. Another instance was that of a German who levitated by about six inches and then fell down with a thud.
Satyeyndra: Some air-cushions should have been placed below. (Laughter)
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Here the topic arose: "Can a sadhak or a Yogi have his life insured?Is it in consonance with the spirit of Yoga?"
SRI AUROBINDO: Thakur Dayanand would have said "No. As I told you, he was always depending on God and didn't believe in storing things. Whatever he used to get he spent. If there was nothing, it meant that God wanted him to starve that day. His followers used to sing and dance — an excited expression of devotion, an emotional demonstration. Later on, he began to complain that his vital forces were being drawn out, and he turned gradually towards Knowledge. All his group had the faith that nothing bad could happen to them. In the shooting affairs, the police came when they were dancing and singing, and seeing them in such exaltation they went back. The disciples thought themselves invulnerable and invincible. Then the Government sent soldiers who broke down their demonstrations and arrested the people. Then their faith got shaken.
Satyeyndra: How can the vital forces be drawn out when one is in contact with the Divine Consciousness?
SRI AUROBINDO: The forces that support the work around one are quite different from the Divine Consciousness.
I had an experience in the Guest House with a man of what may be called an intense type. He was a Maratha. He came to see me. When I came down I felt all around me forces of confusion and death. At once I gathered myself. He was surrounded by forces of disintegration and chaos. Such contacts are dangerous for those who are conscious but weak; their vital forces are drawn out by such people. If one is not conscious, such contacts are harmless.
PURANI : I remember the telling phrase in which you described him: "a wild intensity of weakness".
SRI AUROBINDO: These are the type of people who have great intensity but no solidity.
After this, there was some talk about several examples of that type. From Sri Aurobindo's remarks the following characterisation of them in some detail may be made:
SRI AUROBINDO: At times these people may do brilliant things, but what they do is still slight and has, as it were, no
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body. They have a high opinion of themselves, but they are good only as lieutenants; by themselves they are nothing much. They always have to depend on someone, a group or a movement. And they can't contain themselves, either, and keep quiet: to keep quiet requires solidity. They are never steady. As soon as they achieve something, they give it up and pursue another line. This applies to their Yoga also. As a result, they have brilliant visions and experiences but no realisation. If the Mother puts her Force into them, they become ambitious, believe they can revolutionise the world and may even think of becoming Sri Aurobindo's right hand, replacing the Mother! There is in them a curious mixture of opposites: agnosticism and faith, for instance. And when they happen to be writers, such mixture makes their writings attractive. All in all, they are an interesting lot, even if not fit for Yoga or any substantial work. At least one can't feel dull in their company.
There the talk ended. After an interval Nirodbaran asked a question about Sri Aurobindo's leg, which had still some defect after the accident of 24 November 1938.
NIRODBARAN: Can yogic power remove this defect?
SRI AUROBINDO: It ought to, but I haven't tried that sort of thing before.
Dr. Rao had come and, as usual, he commented on the usefulness of slings, splints, etc. Then he remarked: "Medicines are after all not the main thing. It is Nature that cures and medicines merely help Nature. " We had a small debate on the point. The Mother also was present. After Dr. Rao had left, Sri Aurobindo started speaking.
SRI AUROBINDO: It is curious that doctors after long practice come to such conclusions as Dr. Rao has stated. A medical friend of the Mother's used to say that it is the doctor who heals and not his medicines. This is quite true. One must have an element of healing power. Medicines lend their properties to this power.
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Without this power which is the main thing in a cure, medicines are of very little use.
Satyeyndra: The ancient system in India recognised it as vital force.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Even now in some universities in the south of France-for example, Montpelier which is a famous university there-they admit this vital force. This is because the south of France as well as Spain came much under Arab influence. The vital force theory may come back everywhere.
At one time physical science claimed to explain everything according to its laws. Now they admit they can explain nothing.
PURANI: The law of causality which once allowed no exception is now said to be not absolute. The physicists can't determine the causes of phenomena in every case because in trying to observe the phenomena they interfere with the process and thus vitiate it. This they now call indeterminacy.
SRI AUROBINDO: The attempts of scientists like Jeans and Eddington to find Reality by science are futile. You can't found metaphysics on physical science; for, when you have built your philosophy, after some thirty years or so science will change and your building will tumble down. All you can say is that certain conclusions of science agree with and correspond to certain conclusions of metaphysics. You can't make metaphysics depend on physics.
PURANI: The Continental scientists have now refused to build philosophy on science. They say it is not their business to explain but only to lay bare the process. Eddington says in his Gifford Lectures that the human mind, the subject, ultimately accepts one conclusion out of a number of conclusions not because of the nature of objective reality but because of the nature of the observing subject. That 8+8=16 and not 61 points to some correspondence in the material world to the movement of the thinking mind.
SRI AUROBINDO: It is the accumulated experience- the invariable experience-that gives that sense. Man has found by putting 8 and 8 together that it makes 16.
PURANI: Again, in regard to the rainbow, the scientist study the wave-lengths of light while the poets make a play imagination over it. We have no means of saying that the real rainbow exists for the scientist and not for the poet.
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SRI AUROBINDO: I should say it exists for neither. Only the scientists get excited over the process and the poets over the result.
PURANI: Eddington also admits that we have no ground to say that non-scientific knowledge and experience are less real than physical science.
SRI AUROBINDO: Of course not.
PURANI: Did you read Spengler's Decline of the West? It is a huge volume and deals with many things.
SRI AUROBINDO: No, I haven't read it. What is the upshot of its argument?
PURANI : The upshot is that time is not a mental entity. It has a direction, a tendency. It tends to produce certain events. It points to destiny, a recurring pattern which the sum of forces inevitably leads to. On the data of human history Spengler believes that there have been cycles in the life of the human race when cultures have arisen, reached a zenith and then declined. From a study of these cultures it is possible to predict the decline of every human culture. European culture at present is full of symptoms of decline and therefore it is bound to decline. The signs of decline are the rise of big cities, impoverishment of the countryside, capitalism, etc. He says that to classify history as Primitive, Mediaeval and Modern is not correct. We must study universal history and that, too, impersonally.
Again, within the recurring pattern, a culture has its own characteristic aspects. The mathematical discoveries, for instance, that are seen in a particular culture are organically connected with that culture. The Greeks could never have arrived at the conception of the series—regularly increasing or decreasing numbers leading to infinite number. The series-idea is only possible in modern culture.
He goes so far as to maintain that even if you grant that Napoleon's rise could have been prevented by some causes, still the events that came as a consequence of his career would have followed inevitably because they were destined.
SRI AUROBINDO: I don't quite understand. Even granting that there is destiny, why can't it be changed? How can Spengler say that even if Napoleon had not existed the results of his rise would inevitably have followed? It is a very debatable proposition. I believe the results would have naturally varied.
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If he had not risen at the time, the European powers would have crushed French democracy. What he did was to stabilise the French Revolution so that the world got the idea of democracy. Otherwise it would have been delayed by two or three centuries.
Again, as to destiny, what is meant by it? It is a word that can have several meanings. Is destiny a working of inert blind material forces? In that case there is no room for choice. You have to end up by accepting Shankara's Mayavada or rank materialism. But if you mean by destiny that there is a Will at work in the universe, then a choice in action becomes possible.
Once more, when Spengler speaks of cycles, there is some truth in the idea but it is not possible to make a rigid rule about the recurrence of the cycles. These cycles are plastic and need not be all of the same duration. In the recent Aryan Path a Mr. Morris has written an interesting article, full of facts and based on a study of historical data. In it he tries to show that human destiny has always a cycle of five hundred years. And do you know his conclusion? He believes that there are Mahatmas who manage the world!
Besides, the extension of mathematical numbers to infinity was well known in India long ago; and I don't understand why the classification of historical epochs into Primitive, Mediaeval and Modern is incorrect. Does he mean that there are no differences or that the differences of epochs are to be overlooked?
(After some time) In a philosopher it is not the process of reasoning that is important, for he blinds himself to everything else in order to arrive at his conclusion. Therefore what you have to do is to take his conclusions and even in taking the conclusions you have to accept the essentials and not the words or the inessentials. For instance, there is some truth, as I said, in Spengler's idea of destiny—also in his idea of cycles. All the rest is not material to us.
What is destiny? It can't be the work of the individual. Then you have to accept that it is the working out of a Cosmic Will. And then the question is whether the Cosmic Will is free or bound. If it is free, it is no longer a blind determinism and even when you find there is "no progress", yet that Will is working itself out in evolution.
If, on the other hand, you accept that the Cosmic Will is bound, the question is: "Bound by whom or by what?"
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There is something like a cycle. This means there is a curve in the movement of Nature that seems to repeat itself But that too is not to be taken rigidly. It is something that answers the need of evolution and can vary.
PURANI: Probably something in a man's mind has already accepted the conclusions, unknown to the man himself, and it is by his reasoning that he seems to arrive at them.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is something unknown to the surface consciousness of course!
Then, again, the human ego comes in. It is so limited that it thinks the contribution it brings to human thought is the only truth and all who differ or conflict with it are wrong.
We can turn round and say that a man was destined to think as he thought and thus to bring his contribution to the process of evolution. But it is easy to see that the process of evolution is universal and human evolution cannot be bound down to a set of philosophical ideas or rules of practice. No epoch, no individual, no group has the monopoly of truth. It is the same with religion- Christian, Mohammedan, etc.
PURANI: I don't think such a wide view is possible unless one reaches the Universal Mind.
SRI AUROBINDO: Not necessarily. One can see this much while remaining human.
PURANI: Wells perhaps speaks something similar when he says that all knowledge must now become "human".
SRI AUROBINDO: That is another matter. He means "internationalism". All science is already international and much of literature and other realms of ideas are so too.
What does Spengler say about the future—after the decline of the West?
PURANI: He dismisses China and India as countries whose cultures are useless now.
SRI AUROBINDO: Then we have the Arabs.
PURANI: Not even the Arabs. They are also effete.
SRI AUROBINDO: Then the Africans remain, and the Abyssinians.
PURANI: I think his hope is in the Americans and the Africans.
Satyeyndra: But America goes with the West. So we are left only with the Africans. (Laughter)
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PURANI: It is very curious that Spengler misses the fact that there can be resurgence and reawakening.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Take China, for instance. There were always cities in China—from the most ancient times. The Chinese are a peculiar race—always disturbed and always the same. If you study their history two thousand years back you will find they were in disturbance and yet they had their culture. The Tartar king who tried to destroy their culture by burning their books didn't succeed. And I wouldn't be surprised if after the present turmoil you find them two-thousand years hence what they are today. That is the character of the race.
When you follow the course of history you may find there is a certain destiny which represents the sum of physical forces. That is one destiny. And when that tends to go round and round in an infinite circuit you find that there is a tendency which seems inevitable in the movement.
But the question is: Are physical forces the only determinants of destiny? Or is there anything else—something more than physical that can intervene and influence the course of the movement?
We find that there have been such inrushes of forces in history and the action of these inrushes has been to change the destiny indicated by the physical forces; it has changed in fact the course of human history. Take for an example the rise of the Arabs, A small uncivilised race living in arid deserts suddenly rises up and changes completely the course of history. That is an inrush of forces.
PURANI: Thinkers like Emerson and Shaw believe that human beings have not made any substantial progress in their powers of reasoning since the Greeks. —
SRI AUROBINDO: It is quite true. Of course, you have today a vaster field and more ample material than the Greeks had, but in the handling of them the present-day mind is not superior to the Greek mind with its more limited field and material.
PURANI: Emerson writing about Plato, says that he has been the epitome of the European mind for the last two thousand years or more.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, the European mind got everything from the Greeks and owes everything to them. Every branch of knowledge in which human curiosity could be interested has been,
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given to Europe by the Greeks—even archaeology. The Romans could legislate and fight, they could keep the state together, but they made the Greeks think for them. Of course the Greeks could fight also but not always so well. Take the Roman thinkers—Lucretius, Cicero, Seneca, all owe their philosophy to the Greeks.
That, again, is an illustration of what I was saying about the inrush of forces. Consider a small race like the Greeks, living on a small projecting tongue of land. It was able to build up a culture that has given everything essential to your modern European culture and that in a span of two or three hundred years only! Of course, the Greeks didn't create everything. They got much from Egypt, Crete and Asia.
PURANI : The number of artists they produced was remarkable.
SRI AUROBINDO: They had a sense of beauty. Their life was beautiful. The one thing that modern Europe has not taken from the Greeks is beauty. You can't say modern Europe is beautiful. In fact, it is ugly. What can be said of ancient Greece can be said also of ancient India. She had beauty, which she has since lost. The Japanese are the only race that can be said to have preserved beauty in their life. But now even they are fast losing it under European influence.
The setback to the human mind in Europe is amazing. As I said, no one set of ideas can monopolise Truth and from that point of view all these efforts of Hitler and Mussolini and Stalin to bottle up the human soul in a narrow mould of ideas is absurd. We had thought during the last years of the nineteenth century that the human mind had attained a certain level of intelligence and that it would have to be satisfied before any new idea could find acceptance. But it seems one can't rely on common sense to stand the strain. We find Nazi ideas being accepted; fifty years back it would have been impossible to predict their acceptance. Then, again, the way the intellectuals accept psychoanalysis is surprising.
Krishna Prem (Ronald Nixon) is afraid that psychoanalysis will drive out or kill spirituality because it claims to explain away many spiritual things.
Satyeyndra: People believe anything that is uncommon.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is as in the old dictum: "I believe because it is absurd."
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These Nazi ideas are infra-rational. It is because they are not all rational that they are considered as inspiration. They are even called mystical. They are really nothing but narrow-pointed impulses rising from the lower being. But perhaps this rise of the infra-rational has been necessary in order that the supra-rational may be accepted and that reason may not be able to offer as obstruction to it.
The infra-rational also has a truth; it is necessary for the proper understanding of things. You can't know the world unless you know the part which the infra-rational plays.
NIRODBARAN: Do you mean by the infra-rational all that man has inherited from the animal?
SRI AUROBINDO: Not only that. Man has accused the animal for nothing. In the infrarational are also included the Rakshasa and the Asura. Man has always been speaking of the animal, the Pashu in a superior way. But take the dog's faithfulness and affection. These qualities are universal among dogs. But even when they are found among men, you can't say the same.
PURANI: Mrs. Pinto, the English wife of a friend, told me that she was surprised to find that the cow in India is so mild and docile. In England, it seems, it may attack men.
SRI AUROBINDO: Most animals kill only for food; there are very few that are inherently ferocious. Even snakes don't attack unless they are frightened.
There was a variety of maneless lion in America — the Puma- that would have been friendly to man. Of course it had to live and so killed animals.. But the Americans have been killing it- nearly exterminating it. Most of the wild animals don't kill man unless they find that he is dangerous. That's what happen in Africa. Man begins to shoot them down and they turn against him. In Africa the State had to legislate to prevent the extermination of certain animals. Otherwise people would have killed them off for sport. You can't say man kills only when he is compelled.
And yet we cannot declare man has made no progress. True, the philosopher today is not superior to Plato, but there are many who can philosophise today, also many more who can understand philosophy than in Plato's time. And throughout the course of history a small minority has been carrying the torch to save humanity in spite of itself.
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